ODYSSEUS 2000
Personal Identity and social living

ITINERARIES
stories of voyages into the world

Before going on with the fourth part of our stories, I have to introduce this short “intermezzo” on Gypsies and Rom. At the beginning of the interviews we thought we would have added also Nomad people in our little universe, but we realised that this would have needed a special attention. So we collected just a few witnesses that are not sufficient to make a deep analysis. The first two interviews were realised in Lleida. Two women tell their stories. These are two mixed families. In the first case a Spanish woman married a Gipsy man. In the second case it happened just the contrary: a Gipsy woman married a farmer.
Then there is a sort of summer up of some interviews realised in a Primary school in Falconara with some Gipsy pupils.

Let’s begin with the first story.

“I have four brothers: I am the second daughter. My parents are not gypsies. My husband has got three brothers. His parents and his relatives, both live in Lèrida. We come from Huesca (Barbastro) but we have lived here for 30 years. My mother in law -my husband’s mother- comes from Valladolid. Her husband is from Barbastro (Huesca), (Three generations before they were from Valencia). There are five of us at home plus the grandmother: three girl-children, my husband, his mother and me. We are all Catholics. We got married according to gypsy law. It's a very beautiful way and a custom that I like very much. Girl get married "absolutely" virginal, as they should be. Instead, it's a rare that boys of around 20 haven't ever had sexual relations...Gypsy weddings are very beautiful. The promise, the effort to behave as well as they can. Young people are engaged for 8 or 9 months. If things go wrong during courtship, nothing happens, they break it off. The families do not arrange marriage.”
“Do they prefer having boy or girl children?”
“It's the same: before the birth boys are preferred, but once born it doesn't matter any longer. Before having them, however, many people usually hope that it'll be a boy.”
“How do you feel?”
“As far as we're concerned, things are going well. Often you see details... you hear not very pleasant things. Gypsies are not all equal. My relatives are all extremely pleasant people. But there is this general idea.... There are gypsies who, by the way they dress, are more obviously in view.... I know good people both among the rich and the poor. My sister-in-law doesn’t seem to be a gypsy. In the village, for example, in Barbastro, people tell us: You're all right, but gypsies aren't. It depends on the area. In some parts of Catalonia and Aragon there are no problems for us but it's different in other places.”
“In what way?”
“It depends on the village. In Lèrida we live with 37 neighbours and we feel perfectly at our ease. But I'm sure that if something goes wrong, we...You need to pay attention. When I got married, nobody would have given my marriage a single chance. At that time, among the neighbours, there were many comments. Some told my mother-in-law that we would separate. People stared at us. They wanted to see what could have happened, marrying a gypsy. They wanted to see if we would succeed in staying together.  My family accepted it well.  They don't interfere with our customs, they respect us. The cultures are different. Everybody else has difficulties in understanding it, above all these days because modern girls want to be very free and in our culture there are things you can't do. Knowing it deeply, it's a right culture and it has many positive aspects. I'm much happier now than when I first got married. At the beginning I had trouble getting used to it, above all with my mother-in-law but this is now water under the bridge. We educate our children very well. I am sure that they don't do anything strange. Relations with boys is the only thing that has changed: there are no relations with boys .It is obviously better that gypsies should marry gypsies, even if they separate too.
I suppose that it happens in all cultures. A girl chosen at random would have difficulty in adapting to this life. She wouldn't be able to say: "Look, I'm going out for dinner this evening with my friends...." That is not the custom. Ours is a normal life. There are only some things that change. Gypsies think differently from the others: if there are scenes of sex on TV, they change channels. It's not pleasant to see such a thing in front of the children. These are little things to live day by day.
It also depends on the families. There are old-fashioned families. The Tarradelles, a settlement of gypsies in huts, they are the most old-fashioned. Even within the same culture there can be differences. There are various levels within the same culture. Roots and habits are the same but there are small things that change. At Vascongadas, people are very different. If you go there you'll have a bad time. Women are not modern, they wear long skirts. They dress differently; they're more old-fashioned. They must certainly suffer more to fit-in. At Vascongadas they are nomad. They're different. They don't want, or aren't able, to adapt or there's something that prevents them. If they want to set up houses, it's unlikely that someone will rent them because of the way they look. Gypsy customs and their way of looking at things are good. The others think that gypsies dance, play the guitar and don't work. But there are even among them (the others) people who spend all their time sitting in front of the TV without doing anything. Habits are similar; it's the look that changes.”
“There are some cases of gypsies leaving their job. Don’t you think that this can give the impression that they are not able to respect a timetable?”
“I know no Gipsy people who don’t like working. They have to be just a little minority. The administration should control in order to know who can be helped and who does not deserve anything.”
“Did you ever feel discriminated because of your Gipsy identity?”
“No, not us. On the contrary in Barbastro (Huesca) people are very racist. Many of them belong to OPUS. When we go there to sell they accept us because we don’t look like Gipsies. If they knew we are Gypsies, they would buy nothing more. Many people came back to Lerida because they were not accepted in other places. Racism is everywhere. You are scared from a person until you have the possibility to really know him/her.”
“Can you tell something about the situation of Gipsy women?”
“Nowadays they are no longer subject to their husbands, even if it happens, sometimes. There are even some girls who got married and, the following day, they ran away.”
I’ve been living with my husband for twenty years. If a man doesn’t behave in the right way with his wife and his children, the others form an alliance and menace him. There are exceptional cases. Children and old people are respected very much.”
 “What language do you speak in your family?”
“Castellan. We are not Catalonians. Gypsies coming from Catalonia speak Catalano”
“What kind of friends do you have?”
“Mixed: Gypsies or not. My husband too attended this school. Nowadays he still meets his school friends. Normally friendships are mixed.”
“And what about your spare time?”
“We have a bit lost this habit. All gets lost. We meet in some houses for birthdays. During the summer we go to the swimming pool, we have picnics! Nothing special!”
“Do you take part to the parties organised in Lleida?”
“I bring my daughters to the fairs. If there is something we like, we usually go there together. When we go out, we ca be alone or with other Gipsies.”
“Which are the habits you are carrying on?”
“All is getting lost! To look after old people, to get married: these are the only two different habits that are still carried on. Thing don’t mix: they get lost. When we got married, we always meet on St. Johan’s Day. Now people go out on their own. The family is smaller. People are worried about their good lifestyle.”
“How do you transmit your habits?”
“They live them since they are little children. Girls learn how a house works. There are always many people at home. We feel very closed and we transmit this feeling. They see our habits at home or at my mother’s house. The eldest is getting her driving license. Some girls meet in a house and they like dancing.”
“Do they speak Catalonian?”
“I guess so. And they answer the telephone in Catalano. The eldest daughter has got only four friends. The younger daughter has got many friends, those who she met in the school. They usually went to the “explain” but they got bored. They did not have many friends, but it wasn’t because of their Gipsy identity.”
“Did they take part to the extra school activities?”
“No, we are afraid. We stay all day long in the street. We are not afraid of something particular. If something is not allowed for one of my daughters, it is forbidden for all. It is necessary not to create discrimination among them.”
“What do you like the most in the school?”
“There are a few pupils in each class. So they can be helped in a better way.”
“What don’t you appreciate?”
“I don’t know. I would like to change the image of this school. Only children who live here come to this school. It puts the school under a bad light. Most of pupils are Gipsies. I attended a catholic boarding school and I was discriminated because I was Castellan, I was not in the right place. But now it does not happen anymore.” “What kind of future do you want for your daughters?”
“The best one. No matter what it looks like. The most important thing is that it is good. I want them to live their life. I want them to be able to defend themselves.”
“Have you got any wishes?”
“Health, a job, happiness”
 

Here is now the second story.
 

“How long have you been in Lleida?”
“I was born here. My husband too. I have always lived here. My husband came from Tarragona. I was in Terrasa for three years, but I can say that I lived here more than anywhere else. I have never me t my father. My mother is dead. She was from Lerida. My husband’s parents were from Tarragona. Now they are dead. We are seven: three brothers live in Barcelona, in Sabadell, a sister lives here. Another sister is dead and another one lives in France. I am the youngest.”
“Are you only girls?”
“No, three boys and three girls.”
“And what about you? How many children do you have?”
“Eight. The first daughter is 21, the second is 20, then 18, Asunciòn is 17, Carmen 14, Jesus 13, Alex 10 and the youngest is 7. My eldest daughter has been left a widow and she is looking for a house. We are too many here at home. We are three people, then there is my sister-in-law who is mad, my daughter and her three children.”
“You and your husband, did you get married according to a particular law?”
“We followed the Gipsy law but we also got married at the Municipality.”
“According to you is it better to have a boy or a girl?”
“I like girls the most, but my husband doesn’t. I am happy about my daughters. My daughter inherited something from her father: her daughter has been operated, she is deaf-mute. She lives in Tarradellas.”
“How is now the situation of your family?”
“We have to go on. I cannot get depressed. Otherwise the house would sink. My husband is ill: schizophrenia, his heart does not work. My sister-in-law too is ill. Jesus makes me worry: he has got problems with his nerves.”
“What do you think about the situation of Gipsy women and yours in particular?”
“Women who are not Gipsy have more freedom, we are reduced to slavery. Gipsies have got bad habits. All the people have to see the “headscarf”. It is a shame. They should throw it away. My daughters have experienced it, the eldest got away, she isn't very catholic. She leaves things all over the place. She had meningitis as she was younger, she's very nervous."
“In which language do you speak?”
“In Castilian, the “calo” (gypsy language) has almost disappeared. My husband speaks Catalan and my sons understand him.”
“How do you feel in the quarter?”
“I never thought so many people would come to the funeral of my son-in-law, the whole village has come; we are not nasty and never quarrel, also my husband never does it. Only my son has already been reported because of his dog. The inhabitants of the village are really kind. There is only an old widow who is racist against gypsies, I was informed about it, but I don't quarrel, I don't like it. The whole village came to the burial and everyone offered what we needed and it's always pleasant to see it. The same happens with my husband; when we bring him outdoors, someone comes and offers him a cigar. They are good people.”
“Do you often go outdoors? What kind of activities do you prefer?”
“I don't go out because I have a lot of problems at home, my daughters go to the cinema. I cannot do it since I care for my husband, my sister-in-law and my nephews. In the morning I have to make beds, to clean, to prepare the meal, the children come. I have no time for myself.”
“My mother was an old-fashioned lady. As I got married, she came and lived with me; if I came back late because I went to the cinema she didn't let me get in; if I put on some make-up she told me she would mask me with a pan. She was an old-fashioned lady. I got married at the age of 21 and I was always a slave at home, for my husband, my children and now for my sister-in-law, too. I also see that my sister-in-law gets on with my husband.”
“Gypsy traditions.”
“As far as the girls are concerned, I don't like them going out; Carmen is 14 years old, almost 15. At home no problems, I accept that their friends come and visit us. If she goes out, the husband begins to mumble: “Where is the girl?” And this happens even if her friends are good girls. I tell her: “When you get married you'll do what you want to” It shouldn't be so. My sisters don't do the same, they go out. If my sister from Barcelona comes here and wants to go to the cinema, she says: “the girl comes with me”, but we don't let her go. With the males we do the same you do, but not with the girls.”
“Have you learned any new tradition?”
“I always do the same things, I want the children to go to school, they have to learn; I know something, my eldest daughter teaches me. Sometimes children ask me something but I answer they should ask to their sister. She's about to graduate.”
“Which are for you the most important traditions and why?”
“I don't like any of the gypsy traditions. Sometimes, some friends of my eldest daughter come here and help me. They are members of “pirmi” (economical aid for families with no means). I see them, they come and go. In our traditions the men are at the first place; when my husband doesn't see me, he asks the sons if they have seen me. We are slaves.”
“Do you have respect for the old people?”
“Of course, I think you don't do it. We'll never bring them to the old-people's home. My mother died at the age of 81 but we always took care of her. We respect the old people; it would be fantastic to have my mother here. You don't understand how they are important until the moment they die, I miss my mother so much. My daughters cannot do that, They are still very young; the eldest got married as she was 13 and has a daughter; the other one is 16 and has 2 children, and one of her daughter is crazy and deaf-mute, I feel pity for her!”
“Are your children doing some kind of extra-school activities?”
“No, they aren't.”
“And the school?”
“Not the ones outside Lerida, I am afraid.”
“Afraid of what?”
“Of everything, a lot of things can happen. Also in this aspect the villagers are different. My daughters not, they let them go (their children), they also tell me to let my children go because nothing can happen.”
“Do your children like the school?”
“Yes, very much.”
“Do they speak Catalan?”
“Yes.”
“Are their friends gypsies or not?”
“No, I wouldn't like it.”
“Why?”
“They create problems, my husband is not a gypsy.”
“But he behaves as a gypsy.”
“He knows what happened. The eldest daughter was the favourite here at home, but at the age of 13 she got away with a man who made her pregnant and then left her. We accepted her coming back but now my husband is afraid. Since that episode he is scared.”
“And so we can say that your husband is a gypsy.”
“It's a long time he behaves so, he began as Jesus did; depression, doctors coming and going, treatment for the heart.”
“Had your husband some rural traditions as you got married?”
“Not many, and I explain the reason: before he got married he had had another wife and four children. The wife left him for his brother and they had two children. That's why he began his sad life made of alcohol and depression.”
“How did your parents react as they realised you wanted to marry a farmer?”
“At the beginning nobody wanted to talk to me and also my elder brother didn't want to. But I don't repent, my husband was very kind to me and to his four children, it seems strange he was married with another woman.”
“Does he often see the children he had in his first wedding?”
“A son died because of drugs and he doesn't want to see the daughters, he says they're as false as their mother. I got married with him at the age of 21, had 8 children and was always faithful. If I had known it before I wouldn't have married him, I knew it afterwards, as everything was made. My husband asked me: “If you had known it would you have got married?” I don't repent it, I love him so much.”
“What do you mostly like of the school?”
“The fact my children don't disturb me and that they'll learn important things for their future. I always fought in order to let them go to the school.”
“Would you change something in the school?”
“No, it's important that they learn to write and to read, they'll be able to find a job.”
“What kind of future do you wish for your children?”
“A future which must be better than mine; they must work, it's the best thing.”
“Can a gypsy woman work?”
“No, if the husband doesn't allow her. I was seven years long in the “Mutua of Terrassa”, everyone loved me, my husband didn't want it. I had problems at the vertebral column, I have poliomyelitis. But I love to work.”
“Where do you get money?”
“We have the pension of my sister-in-law of 23.000 pesetas, my husband has another one of 24.000 pesetas. I receive an aid of 60.000 pesetas; with this I can pay the light, the house, the telephone, the food, the children: there is nothing left but it's enough. When I get the double I buy shoes for my children.”
“I would like you to tell me something more of the whole things you described to me; why wouldn't you like other gypsy children in the school?”
“Because they are very impudent; when I went to schools with gypsy boys, they always came with black eyes, they had fights, they are nasty. My children can go everywhere. There are some gypsies who deserve nothing, but their parents have the whole fault, they should have neither house nor anything else. I don't wash my children every day, only twice a week. The dirtiest is the oldest one, I have difficulties in dressing him, I have a problem at the hand, I have few strength and sometimes I have to dress him and put him the shoes on because he doesn't want to do it by himself.”
“Have you experienced any episode of racism?”
Yes, we are the ones who lived in Aitona, all the newspapers talked about it. The first day the children came back from school telling that they were the only ones who went in there, the same thing happened the second day. The first day I had no suspicions, then came the TV and the newspapers: “Until the gypsy children go to school, we won't go there anymore.” We were constraint to go away. There were no episodes of racism more, only in Aitona. We had to leave everything. I think they are racist and that's all. I also were at the college of the sisters of Aitona because they had a refectory; they told me with scorn that there was no place. It was the only place.”